From: milne_v@hotmail.com (milne_v) Newsgroups: alt.mindcontrol Subject: The Razor Edge of Disinfo: Internet Discussion Groups Date: 22 Sep 2002 17:59:43 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 542 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.215.30.129 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1032742783 2175 127.0.0.1 (23 Sep 2002 00:59:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 2002 00:59:43 GMT Path: rsl2.rslnet.net!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: rsl2.rslnet.net alt.mindcontrol:3086 This was the agenda of almost all the modeterated Mind Control and Electronic Harassment groups I belonged to and illustrates the same tactics in a nutshell, point for point. The un-moderated groups are handled a different way. Any time any one post anything that might be relevent it is buried behind dozens or even many dozens of spam or nonsense posts or attempts are made to divert the relevent memdership into several seperate moderated groups were they can worked on individually. The same individuals or groups of individuals dominate these groups, are fond of endless name dropping and claim to be involved in serious research that is more of a diversion than anything else. Attacks will continue both in the group and in private Emails. It was easy to tell after a while what could be considered relavent and what wasn't. The relevent stuff would be emphatically ignored, diverted with nosense or ferociously attacked by means of personal attacks. It was my impression that the antagonists were a paid and organized lot that communicated with each other off group and formed various tactics with which to disrupt and or harass the relevent posters while still appearing to function within the mandate of the group. Needless to say, the "serious research" was only disemminated in a very controlled fashion from the same people who would repeatedly recycle the same re-packaged information over and over, while discouraging most other forms of research or progress. Attempting to expose these individuals as dis-info artists would generally forment a tidal wave of un-solicited Emails and endless anonymus Email with links to porno sites or hacker attacks. In closing I would like to leave you with this little bit of information. Should you become a serious nuisance to these people, the harassment can and will continue into your personal life far beyond the bounds of the stuff you may have experineced on-line. This is the basic idea behind the functioning and methodologies of Community Policing and various members of your neighbourhood, both private and business related can and will be solicited to give you and your family a hard time using what-ever methods they can dream up. At this stage, don't expect much help from the authorities because that's who ultimatly orchestrating the hard time. ---- The Razor Edge of Disinfo: Internet Discussion Groups by Lisa Guliani September 22, 2002 (Babel Magazine #75) NOTE: The Stop Chemtrail Group can be found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StopChemtrails The following article is a commentary on Internet discussion groups, and in particular, the ChemtrailtrackingUSA discussion group on Yahoo. I want to say that while we at Babel promote cooperation and camaraderie amongst all online news sources, we also believe in calling a spade a spade. We believe in exposing what is false. With respect to the ChemtrailtrackingUSA group, all is not as it seems or is presented to be, and since I have plugged this group in previous articles, I feel obligated to present this material to my readers. If you aren't frequenting one or more of the conspiracy groups or websites on the Internet, then you aren't privy to the information those of us who do often take for granted. This is unfortunate because the majority of the population is caught in an information "blind". There are many discussion groups available on the Internet, and the topics are infinite. These discussion groups are very interactive, and members can circulate information and opinion swiftly with just a click of the mouse. Let me say this, though: you must be very careful when and where you share opinion or information. There are consequences, you know, even on the Internet – especially in moderated discussion groups. If you think freedom of speech is restricted outside the "box", well, you need to know that it is also being squashed within the "box" as well. You are being monitored both in the real and virtual worlds. All is not what it seems, and if you're headed into any political or conspiracy discussion group on Yahoo, you need to know that your movements within the group forum will be watched closely. Here's what happened to me and others in the ChemtrailtrackingUSA group. It is a very good example of what is going on in various discussion groups. It is good to bring this information to the surface and let potential members know what they're in for before they sign up to join a discussion group. Your right to free speech, civility and courtesy is not respected by the moderators or owners of certain groups. Plus, there appears to be a secret agenda which underlies the outward purpose for some of these "groups". I'll get into that in a moment. Remember, forewarned is forearmed. I share this with you because I wish someone would have warned me. If you dare to challenge any inappropriate commentary in the ChemtrailtrackingUSA group, be prepared to be attacked by the moderator and her henchmen. This is what I experienced. I learned this when trying to speak my mind in defense of myself and others on a group I've recommended in previous articles – ChemtrailtrackingUSA on Yahoo, better known to me and my pals as "Yahell". We all walk the fine line of the razor's edge when we traverse controversial political pathways. The Internet is no exception, and neither is this chemtrail group. When you make the (often tragic) miscalculation of posting a message within ChemtrailtrackingUSA's forum, it is akin to standing in the center of the Roman Coliseum and offering yourself up to the starving lions. It's like walking around with a bold sign pasted on your back that reads, "Kick me until my butt bleeds." Furthermore, I have noticed in the many months I've been an active member of this group that there has been some consistency with the patterns of behavior with respect to the moderators, Dona Terry, also known as "I_don't_chat", and Lorie Kramer, also known as "Lo the Seektress". The patterns of behavior I refer to involve censorship, unnecessary deletion of member posts on the forum, removal of members from the group, and outright personal attacks, rudeness, and hostility. When the moderators are unwilling or too lazy to attack an outspoken member themselves, they call in their "dogs" to do it for them. Naturally, when confronted with this, they deny it. Well, what else are they going to say? This was evidenced in more than one instance by me and every other member of the chemtrail group, which boasts an impressive membership of 1806 persons at this writing. Here, I will show you what I mean. To give you a little background history, I will summarize by saying that I rose to the occasion and took the bait in an attempt to effect a change in the often rude and hostile replies made by the moderators to member posts on the group forum. After several months of seeing the "Seektress," one of the (now former) moderators, take nasty pot shots at members who participated in discussion, I became indignant enough to post a response. Well, let's just say that I placed myself in the direct center of that proverbial coliseum and, without fail, the lions came lunging at me and BIT. What I basically said was this: that I didn't see the necessity of being rude and overly sarcastic when replying to those who took the time to post messages for discussion on the group forum. I asked the "Seektress" to refrain from responding in such a confrontational manner, and perhaps if she could be nicer, there would be less animosity. I didn't understand what her issues were at the time, but now I think I've figured them out. More on that later. In the meantime, let's proceed to my next instance of speaking out on behalf of myself, during which the "Seektress," whose real name is Lorie Kramer, and one of her buddies in the group, proceeded to virtually chew me a new "orifice". I have seen this happen a number of times to other members. It is done with the intention of intimidating the member from posting further comments on the board, and it has succeeded very well in the past. Why? Because no one likes to be humiliated in a public forum for no reason. Well, this is a daily or almost daily occurrence on the ChemtrailtrackingUSA group. So many people who would normally contribute to the discussions remain silent and simply observe remotely the exchanges among group members to avoid ridicule, insult and criticism. It's a shame, but this is what is happening. At least, when I'm sarcastic, I reserve it for the Air Force, NASA, and the so-called "government". I don't attack the People. Another thing I am witnessing is that when someone brings some good information to share with the group, almost immediately this person is marginalized and belittled. The information is trivialized and made to seem worthless, of no inherent value, and basically inconsequential. The only ones I've seen attack like this are the moderators and their cronies. The majority of active members of ChemtrailtrackingUSA appear to be good folks, genuine in their desires to shed some light on this illegal chemical spraying, earnest in their mission to find those responsible for it, and to force accountability. There are real people out there who want to stop it once and for all. An enormous task we face, considering the walls we must smash through to get even the tiniest of crumbs with which to begin tracking the trail of deception and cover-up. However, it doesn't seem like everyone wants chemtrail spraying stopped. I would even go so far as to say that certain individuals would rather see the chemtrails being sprayed indefinitely. After all, where would they be without chemtrails? They wouldn't have anyone to control and suppress if chemtrails were stopped. The CTTUSA group is one of the larger Internet discussion groups – it boasts some very pro-active members - diligent, hard-working people who are determined to get to the bottom of this giant mess. And, I believe, at some point, they will. We will. Let me say this, too. I have noticed that some of the most active and sensible members have been vilified on the forum by the moderators. I have no reason to explain this behavior perpetrated by people who should (you would think) be happy to see such active participation among group members. Instead, the moderators post messages which give me the clear sense that they are not happy or pleased or even interested, in many instances, when someone shares their progress. It is as if they don't want to see PROGRESS towards resolution of this issue. The amount and degree of marginalization that occurs is very indicative to me that things are not all they seem on this forum. Blatant censorship prevails. And, when these aforementioned "moderators" cross cyber-paths with someone such as me; well, maybe they've bitten off a bit more than they can chew. I'll explain this statement. I am very fond of my fellow members in the ChemtrailtrackingUSA group. I think we've all worked very hard in researching, documenting, recording, photographing, letter-writing, making phone calls to legislators, etc. This group of people is good at working together toward a common goal. Most are team players in every sense of the word. Who isn't playing along WITH the team? I point my finger directly at the moderators, who might as well be called the "schoolyard bullies" of the group. At any rate, I get along well with my fellow members because I am nice to them and treat them with respect, and they do the same with me. The "schoolyard bullies", however, do not play nice and are there waiting around the cyber-corner to steal your lunch money and virtually "beat you up". So, when I had finally had my second bellyful of abuse from "Lo the Seektress," I stood up in my cyber-corner and spoke my mind. I told her (again) that there was no need for her to respond to posts in such a hostile manner and perhaps people wouldn't regard her as a "bitch" if she stopped presenting herself as one. This was like me saying, "C'mere lions. Come and get me." I went even further by characterizing the "Seektress" as a possible disinformation agent, which I maintain that she is, for what I believe to be good reasons. As I've found out, others within the group share this opinion, and it is due solely to the way the "Seektress" presents herself to the group. The "Seektress" is a major disruptive force within the forum, and her messages to the group have been, for the most part, counterproductive to promoting open discussion. Anyway, what followed these posts by me was something akin to a tag team match. At least three persons virtually "rushed" me, coming to the "Seektress'" defense, and they came with teeth bared, spit flying, and knives swinging. They were out for blood. Here, I'll show you an example of what I mean. This particular post was submitted by a person many of you might be familiar with. Her name is Diane Harvey and she is a regular columnist for Jeff Rense at Rense.com. Ms. Harvey, whom I have never had an unpleasant word with prior to this occasion - nor since - decided to inject herself into my discussion in the ChemtrailtrackingUSA forum. This was a discussion that not only was NOT about her, but also didn't include her. Yet, she interjected herself into it so as to publicly attack me before the group of 1800 people. Even more peculiar is the fact that Ms. Harvey rarely, if ever, posted prior to this diatribe during my time in the group, and has NEVER posted since. It absolutely seemed as if she was "called in" to "take care of me." When I asked Dona Terry about this, she told me that she didn't call her in, but suggested that it was perhaps done by Lorie Kramer, who has referred to Ms. Harvey as "our ‘beloved' Diane Harvey." Anyway, she had a lot to say, and what follows is a classic example of how disinformation agents operate. I wanted to show you this, even though it is very much a malicious attack against me, my personality, my character, my mental state, etc… And, it is brought on by a woman who I've only had a very limited contact with in the past, all of it pleasant. Check this out. Lisa Guliani (my post to fellow members of the CTTUSA group) wrote: "Say, what do you think about this idea? Why don't we get some of the others together and start a new chemtrail group - one in which nobody's posts are censored or deleted, and one in which people are treated with civility and respect." Diane Harvey's reply to my posting, under the name of "Sedona Diane" - (check this out, and she supposedly calls herself a "professional" journalist!) "Excellent idea. You should start immediately, and start with yourself. Don't wait for others to agree with you: just do it. Because obviously anyone who has such deep problems with Lo and this board shouldn't be wasting their time here. In fact, anyone who would say what you have is already so far over the limits of reasonable discourse that you have effectively already removed yourself from this board. I have no idea who you are or where you came from, but who you quite mistakenly imagine you are is abundantly clear. To refer to Lo as a disinformation agent already tells us more than we will ever want to know about your particular personal psychological problems. Do take your highly destructive personal ego difficulties elsewhere, and do it immediately. You have entered a very honest and sacrificial human being's public work space and are accusing her of what amounts to, in our work, criminal behavior. All of us who have been working together for the past several years and know one another very well can only read such vile drool with intense disgust. You demonstrate the lack of all capacity for even normal human levels of respect by such statements. And you are clearly unable to manage even rudimentary comprehension of who you are dealing with here. By your own words you reveal yourself to be in need of serious help before you attempt to interact with useful people. In particular, you need to understand the psychological problem called "projection". When you lay such a nasty lie of an accusation on an innocent person while calling for civilized behavior, look in the mirror and understand it is you who are the source of all your difficulties here. Since anyone as deliberately and viciously wrong as you are carries the same dysfunctional viciousness everywhere they go, your desire to carry away many members of this group is not likely to bear much fruit. Your best hope therefore is to start your own message board and hope there are a few others around who likewise suffer from the same torments of jealousy and spite as you do. One never knows. There might be a few, and you can live happily ever after wallowing in your mutual venom. It's where you belong. GO." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, you may be saying to yourself, well, Lisa may have a problem with this Diane Harvey person. Right? Well, no, I DIDN'T prior to getting this message from her in my inbox. In fact, Ms. Harvey actually LIES in her post. For one thing, she states that she does not know me or where I come from. Hmmm, that's kind of funny and a very odd statement considering that we are both members of a very tiny group (10 or 11 members) called "Secret College" also on Yahell – and have e-mailed each other before. And, Ms. Harvey personally e-mailed me to welcome me to the group when I joined some months ago. (I have a copy of this e-mail if anyone wants proof.) Further, Ms. Harvey even submitted material to Babel Magazine at my urging! (Regrettably, it wasn't used.) So, she knows VERY definitely WHO I am and where I'm from. Why would she lie and say otherwise? What intrigued me the most about her malicious public attack on me was the fact that she felt compelled enough about what I said about "people being treated with civility and respect," to counter with such a blood-draw. Apparently, Ms. Harvey has something against civility and respect. If you read some of her work, you will find that she displays strong derision and scorn for other people, and not just against the New World Order. I would go so far as to say that I think Ms. Harvey is FOR the New World Order agenda. Her e-mails to myself and to Victor Thorn clearly indicate to me that she is NOT what she seems. She reminds me ABSOLUTELY of a disinformation agent, as does the "Seektress" and "I_don't_chat", (Lorie Kramer and Dona Terry, respectively.) I will also say this. As a member of this other group, Secret College (which I was invited to join), I have witnessed prior instances of Ms. Harvey's wrath against the moderator of Secret College, as well as others. This woman is prone to throwing "temper tantrums" and believes the majority of people are deluded, while she is a vault of knowledge when it comes to the New World Order, etc. In other words, there is a LOT of ego there. I do wonder how it is that Ms. Harvey is so clued-in to what the New World Order represents compared to the rest of us. How is she mainlined into their consciousness? Is she one of them? In fact, the reason I stopped posting messages at Secret College was due to the cyber tantrums by Ms. Harvey, in which she felt the need to scathingly attack the moderator and others. Mainly, Ms. Harvey has a problem with people who bear opposing viewpoints. And, considering the manner in which she writes, it begs the question, "How would YOU know what is the truth unless you are part of the Machine?" It does make one wonder. I will say that this was not a pleasant experience for me. I will also say that I had the self-control to not retort in the manner I wanted to. I held my tongue, which is a considerable feat for the likes of me. I restrained myself, and I received some very nice messages from other CTTUSA members in which they recounted similar "lion gorgings" that had happened to them when they stood up to Lorie Kramer and Dona Terry's "bullying" and rudeness. This is, in a nutshell, what a faction of the ChemtrailtrackingUSA members think about what is going on with the moderators of that group: 1. The "Seektress" and "I_don't_chat" (Lorie Kramer and Dona Terry) are either paid government disinformation agents themselves, OR they are connected with the Feds. The reason is made very clear if you join this group and sit back and watch what is going on. Marginalization, character assassination, discrediting of information, censorship, deletion of posts, and removal of members … join and see for yourself. The newest trend on this group forum is to delete "off topic" messages between members. However, this is done in a very inconsistent manner, and the "Seektress" is not privy to this censorship. We are told what we can talk about and what we cannot. We are scolded and harangued and deleted when we choose to interact with one another and the message does not involve chemtrails. Rather than nurturing a feeling of camaraderie among the membership by allowing members to freely exchange ideas and thoughts about what they want to discuss, the moderators have decided to disallow "off topic" posts. I have been told personally by Dona Terry that I am among a group of people who are being monitored. My posts to the group are read first by the moderator(s) before they are allowed to appear before the group. My recent posts have been deleted. One contained a single word – "Huh?" – which was a reply to a post by Lorie Kramer, one in which I was confused as to what she was talking about. Ms. Terry deleted that post. Another was a reply thanking a fellow member. She deleted that also. This deletion is rampant and is causing something of a ruckus on CTTUSA. People do NOT like being controlled in this way. But, if you care to be a part of this group, this is a definite "given". Expect to be dictated to, controlled and monitored. Curiously, much of this behavior has been blamed on Yahoo (Yahell) and the "Feds" regarding delayed posting of member messages. There is reason to believe that it is actually the moderators who are to blame for delayed postings on the message board. And, it all makes sense if one believes that there is some connection between the moderators and the Feds. THAT is not inconceivable. They read the posts before allowing them to be accessed by the group-at-large. They delete what they choose. This is free speech? I have personally noticed that the majority of the 1800 some-odd members of this group remain silent. Where are they? Why don't we ever hear from them? Are there even such members? It appears that a very small percentage of individuals post at all. The rest remain in name only. We don't see them contribute and we never hear from them, but we're supposed to believe they are there. Okay. Whatever. And I would like to know this: Lorie Kramer likes to make frequent statements about Clifford Carnicom, connecting herself and this group affiliation with Mr. Carnicom –"prominent" chemtrail investigator and researcher. I e-mailed Clifford a few times over the last several months. Guess what? No response. Nothing. Others have expressed the same thing. At first I thought, well, this guy must be very busy. He probably is, if he is investigating the chemtrails issue. I think the linkage to Mr. Carnicom is merely to boost Ms. Kramer's own credibility, which she often negates with the click of her computer mouse. I'm serious. This is not a jab at him or anyone else. There are simply those of us who would have appreciated a direct response from Mr. Carnicom over the last several months to our emails. .None was forthcoming. Sometimes, it is almost as if Cliff Carnicom doesn't even exist, although I know he does. It does make one wonder why in the world a man like Carnicom would link himself up with the likes of the "schoolyard bullies" of CTTUSA. That is very curious to me, considering how professionally Carnicom conducts himself in his chemtrail investigations. The main point I'm trying to get across is this: I believe that there is a very sound reason for having these group discussions. I think people definitely benefit any time there is a free exchange of ideas and information. The groups are also a good way for people to develop friendships and work together toward solutions to disturbing, dangerous, illegal activity and provocative issues. I have made some absolutely wonderful friends on the ChemtrailtrackingUSA group. I love them dearly. The problems I see are not complex. I see that there are some "divas" who want notoriety while they further their personal agendas by linking their names with "prominent" researchers. I also notice there are "control" issues that are limiting the exchange of information and not allowing people to become more familiar with one another. I see that there is a certain, distinct DISINTEREST among the moderators of ChemtrailtrackingUSA in any information provided by people other than themselves. I also see that any active member who genuinely tries to get to the bottom of this can of worms is setting themselves up for a big fall. I further see the moderators of this group as an obstruction to any potential progress to be made with regard to chemtrail spraying. It appears that both Kramer and Terry don't want to see any progress; at least they do not recognize progress made by their own membership. Instead, what I and others are seeing from the moderator(s) is a concerted effort at distracting and dividing the membership. I have been contacted by various members of this group who have shared with me their true feelings and thoughts on this subject. We are all on the same page. We collectively believe that, while this group may have begun with good intentions, it mainly serves as a tracking site for the Feds. We believe that this group exists mainly to allow the Feds to monitor the activities of individuals who are actively pursuing answers to this illegal chemtrail issue (and they don't have to lift a finger while doing so). We do all the work. We're the ones taking pictures, videos, documenting sightings of spraying activity, collecting samples, monitoring the impact of chemtrails on humans, animals, plant life and the environment. We are the ones taking note of the changes being made in our skies. There is no investigation underway by the legislators we have contacted regarding chemtrail spraying. There is no curiosity within the mainstream media-whore coffee clutches. We are told, in no uncertain terms, by Lorie Kramer, that we must not point any finger of blame at the Air Force for chemtrail spraying – even though it is our own U.S. Air Force that has been implementing a plan to "Own the Weather By 2025". She is averse to saying anything negative at all about the very questionable U.S. Air Force's activities. Why? They are without a doubt INVOLVED in chemtrail spraying. Somebody is keeping a secret from the rest of us. Come on, Ms. Kramer – come clean. There are other things I could list here, but by now, my disgust and disillusionment must be quite evident. I have been an active and vocal member of ChemtrailTrackingUSA for the better part of a year now. I have stood by this group and worked with the passion of one who is bent and determined to find out the TRUTH. I have watched others walk the razor edge and have seen them kicked out of the group for NO REASON. Basically, because they stood up to the lousy treatment and diversion/distraction tactics and bullying by the moderators, and for bringing information to the attention – or attempting to – of the rest of the group. Most of these people have been kicked out, and have then rejoined under other names. They feel it is THAT imperative to get the word out and to remain within the loop of information. And, it is. We know that the chemtrail issue is a huge cover-up. We know that it is merely one facet of the New World Order agenda. We also know that if the TRUTH is to ultimately surface, some of us must be willing to make a sacrifice, to take a chance, and to speak out in the face of persecution. I am part of a group of individuals who are promoting the current mutiny that is now taking place on the Internet. We personally invite any person reading these words join us in our new splinter groups – apart from ChemtrailtrackingUSA. These groups are going to make chemtrail topics our main focus, but we will also welcome plenty of "off topic discussion". We believe that there is no point in having a group if all cannot feel comfortable participating and speaking freely. We invite anyone interested in stopping this illegal poisoning of our planet to contact us. Chemtrails are an arm of the New World Order agenda, and are part of an ever-widening platter of topics doe discussion and thought. We welcome the input of everyone who cares. The two new groups are as follows: "Chemtrails and Other Issues of Intrigue", which is located on Ezboard at: http://pub7.ezboard.com/fchemtrailsandotherissuesofintriguefrm1 – Also, please check out this new forum on Yahoo (Yahell): The name of the group is "StopChemtrails" and you may access by logging onto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StopChemtrails or by emailing me at Wingedpiper@yahoo.com. The moderators of this Yahoo group are all members of ChemtrailtrackingUSA who have had enough of the suppression of free speech, bullying, distraction, diversions, and hostility of CTTUSA moderators. We seek freedom of thought and speech, as we walk the razor edge of truth and disinformation. We welcome all who want to join these discussions to please do so. We are seeing, in just a day's time, an "exodus" towards our new splinter groups as people pour into the new forums. This is extremely gratifying. Come on in, the door is wide open. This article was not intended for the purpose of slandering or defaming any other person. As I see it, we want everyone to work together and get along. However, we also realize the importance and significance of calling a "spade a spade". And, frankly, as an active member of CTTUSA, I can say, I have had my bellyful. I am not alone. I would really like to be a part of a group that treats its members with respect and doesn't restrict their freedom of speech. And, considering the words of Dona Terry, moderator of ChemtrailtrackingUSA, when I e-mailed her and asked what the PURPOSE of "chemtrail-tracking" IS - she told me in no uncertain or misconstrued terms: "There is no purpose to ChemtrailtrackingUSA." In other words, the information being gathered is not being used for some formal report or presentation to our so-called government or military. It has no purpose according to Ms. Terry. Well, that is NOT good enough for me. There must be some purpose. Otherwise, what are we doing this for? A hobby? I may have a big mouth, but I can't help but speak out when I see something WRONG going on. And, as much as I hate to say this – and I do – there is something VERY WRONG with what is being allowed to go on in this group. Anyone who wants to be part of two FREE forums on chemtrails and other issues of intrigue, please e-mail me. We want to work with all of you in a comfortable and civil atmosphere. Let FREEDOM ring throughout cyberspace, too. We'll walk the razor's edge together. http://www.victorthorn.com/babel/issue75/razor.html --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ParanoidTimes/message/19169